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Who won tonite’s debate?
In my focus group, 6 people said Trump and 16 said Clinton.#DebateNight
your comments below
Fact check: ICE
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump: “I was just endorsed by ICE.”
Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a government agency. It does not endorse political candidates. A group of former customs officials endorsed Trump just before the debate.
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3.39am
03:39
Last question: will you accept the outcome of the election?
Clinton says she will. But she’s asking for support because she believes livelihoods and families depend on it.
Trump sayd he wants to make America great again.
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3.38am
03:38
Follow
Mona ✔ @MonaChalabi
Does Trump have the right temperament to be president? 35% said yes. How about Clinton? 58% said yes. http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16.htm
4:37 AM – 27 Sep 2016
5 5 Retweets 10 10 likes
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3.37am
03:37
Fact check: the nuclear deal with Iran
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump on the Iran nuclear deal: “One of the worst deals ever made by any country in history.” He said $400m in cash was part of that deal – and Clinton was responsible.
Clinton had nothing to do with the delivery of $400m to Iran as part of a settlement for a failed arms deal that Tehran’s pre-revolutionary government had made with the US in the 1970s.
The State Department under John Kerry has admitted, however, that it wanted to use that money as “leverage” to secure the sailors’ release, although its transfer had been mediated through an international court. The money was delivered as foreign currency because US law bars any transaction in US dollars and sanctions make bank transactions difficult.
The US is not giving any of its own money to Iran as part of an international nuclear arms deal meant to prevent the construction of weapons. The deal gradually unfreezes assets that belong to Iran but were frozen under sanctions related to the nation’s nuclear program. Sanctions related to human rights, terrorism and other issues remain in place and still lock Iran out of billions.
Trump’s guess of how much Iran will benefit by unfrozen assets is far higher than most experts’ estimates, though not inconceivable. Treasury secretary Jack Lew has put the number at $56bn, and Iranian officials have said $32bn and $100bn. Independent economists have calculated that Iran will free up anything between $30bn to $100bn. Complicating the math are Iran’s debts: it will have to pay off tens of billions to countries such as China.
There is no evidence that the brief capture in January of 10 American sailors had any effect on the nuclear deal, which had been finalized five months earlier, although the incident rattled fragile relations between Washington and Tehran. A few days after the sailors were released, United Nations inspectors confirmed that Iran had complied with the deal.
What Iran does next remain an open question – subject to inspection by UN officials – and Clinton’s argument in favor of the deal hinges on a degree of good faith that Tehran will comply by the terms of the deal.
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3.33am
03:33
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
Donald Trump has questioned Hillary Clinton’s temperament, perhaps because voters are questioning Donald Trump’s temperament. A poll conducted by Monmouth University just last week found that 61% if respondents didn’t think Trump “has the right temperament to be president” while just 39% said the same of Clinton.
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3.32am
03:32
Trump says the Iran deal “was one of the first deals ever made by any country in history.”
Holt tries to move on.
Trump: “I met with Bibi Netanyahu the other day. Believe me, he is not a happy camper.
Clinton: “I want to reassure our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we will honor them… I want to on behalf of myself and I think on behalf of the majority of the American people say that ‘our word is good.’
“There’s no doubt that we have other problems with Iran… and Donald never tells you what he would do.. would he have bombed Iran?
“He should tell us what his alternative should be. It’s like his plan to defeat Isis. He says it’s a secret plan, but the only secret is that he has no plan…
“Are we going to lead the world with strength in accordance with our values? That’s what I intend to do… we cannot let those who would try to destabilize the world… to be given any opportunities at all.”
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3.31am
03:31
Fact check: Nato and a hotel
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump has claimed that Nato must turn to a directly anti-terror campaign in the Middle East, and that his urging has already influenced the alliance.
But Nato has had a Defense Against Terrorism program since June 2004, almost a full 12 years before Trump called the alliance “obsolete”. In July its member nations decided to increase efforts against Isis, specifically, in Syria and Iraq, as its leaders had discussed for months. Trump was not involved.
Trump also claimed that his new Washington DC hotel came in before schedule and under budget.
Not quite. Per the AP:
A June 2013 press release posted on the Trump Organization’s website announced that the redevelopment of the old post office was “expected to start in 2014 with the hotel opening scheduled in 2016.” A few months later, the Trump Organization announced the expected grand opening of the hotel would happen at the end of 2015. The Trump Organization said in a third statement in 2013 … completion was expected in late 2015.
In 2014, the Trump Organization went back to announcing the hotel would open in mid-2016. In February, in the midst of Trump’s presidential campaign, the organization shifted and announced the hotel was planned to open in September, “almost two years ahead of schedule, which is unheard of for a project of this size and complexity,” Ivanka Trump is quoted as saying.
And during a March visit to the site, Donald Trump said, “We’re two years ahead of schedule. We’re going to be opening in September.”
The hotel is now only partly open.
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3.28am
03:28
Holt moves to the last segment. Do you support the current policy on “first use”? of nuclear weapons. It’s a bit of a gotcha question. He’s talking about no first use.
Trump blathers about Russia, then says, “I would certainly not do first strike.”
He says China should “go into North Korea.” Then he says Iran has power over North Korea. He’s casting an extremely wide net for this answer.
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3.28am
03:28
As the candidates debate “securing America” with a particular focus on the threat of Isis and each candidate’s stance on the Iraq war, this chart offers some context:
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3.27am
03:27
Clinton quotes Trump as saying “you know if they taunted our sailors, I’d blow them out of the water…” referring to sailors taken captive by Iran.
Clinton continues on Trump’s temperament: “The worst.. has been about nuclear weapons. He has said repeatedly that he does not care if other countries got nuclear weapons..
His cavalier attitude about nuclear weapons is so deeply troubling… A man who could be provoked with a tweet should not have his finger anywhere near the button.
Trump:
That line is getting a little bit old.
Clinton:
It’s a good one, though. Well describes the problem.
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3.24am
03:24
Clinton tweaks Trump for temperament boast
Trump: “I have much better judgment than he does. There’s no question about that. I also have a much better temperament than she does…
I think my strongest asset maybe by far is my temperament. I have a winning temperament.
He’s raving about his perfect temperament.
Holt: Secretary Clinton?
Clinton: “Whoo! OK” She makes fun of him and gets a laugh.
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3.21am
03:21
Holt says that Trump supported the war in Iraq.
Trump flies off the handle: “That is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her!”
Holt: “The record shows otherwise.”
Trump: “The record shows that I’m right.”
Then he runs through his own history of his positions. He talks about Sean Hannity telling him, Trump, that he, Trump, opposed the war.
Trump is still talking. “If somebody would call up Sean Hannity, he and I used to have arguments.”
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3.21am
03:21
Fact check: Isis, Libya and Iraq
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump: “President Obama and Secretary Clinton created a vacuum” for Isis.
The claim that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton created the conditions for ignores that Isis’s first segments formed out of the post-invasion civil war in Iraq, while George W Bush was president; that the group took root in Syria’s civil war, where the US did not intervene until 2014; and that Obama withdrew American forces in 2011 under the timeline agreed on by Bush and Baghdad.
Clinton: “Donald supported the invasion of Iraq.”
Trump: “Wrong.”
This is a lie. In the months before the Iraq war began, the businessman made a tepid endorsement of invasion to radio host Howard Stern, who asked him whether he thought the US should attack Saddam Hussein.
“Yeah, I guess so,” Trump answered.
A few weeks later he told Fox News that George W Bush was “doing a very good job”. Several weeks after the invasion, Trump told the Washington Post: “The war’s a mess.” In August 2004 he told Esquire: “Two minutes after we leave, there’s going to be a revolution, and the meanest, toughest, smartest, most vicious guy will take over.”
Even in an interview cited by the Trump campaign to explain his “opposition”, Trump expressed impatience with Bush for not invading sooner. “Whatever happened to the days of the Douglas MacArthur? He would go and attack. He wouldn’t talk.”
Trump also supported complete withdrawal from Iraq, even in the event of continued civil war or authoritarian violence there. “You know how they get out? They get out. That’s how they get out. Declare victory and leave,” he told CNN in 2007. “This is a total catastrophe, and you might as well get out now because you’re just wasting time, and lives.”
Like Clinton, Trump also supported military strikes in Libya, saying in a February 2011 video blog that the US should take “immediate” action against dictator Muammar Ghaddafi.
“We should go in, we should stop this guy, which would be be very easy and very quick. We could do it surgically.” No one supported an occupation to “build democracy” there in the model of George W Bush’s occupation of Iraq.
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3.19am
03:19
Trump accuses Clinton of turning Iran into “a major power.”
On Nato, “they have to understand I’m a business person,” Trump says. He accuses allies of not “paying their fair share.”
Then Trump claims credit for Nato opening up a major terror division.
“I think we have to get Nato to go into the Middle East with us, and we have to knock the hell out of Isis, and we have to do it fast.”
Then Trump says that in fact Clinton did pull out the troops.
Clinton: We’ve covered this ground.
Holt brings up domestic and homegrown terrorism. How to prevent those? Trump is first.
Trump goes back to Isis. She blames the formation of Isis on the precipitous withdrawal from Iraq. He suggests leaving 10,000 troops behind. “We should’ve taken the oil. .. Isis would not have been able to form either,” he says.
Trump refers to “Libya, which was another one of her disasters.”
Clinton again appeals to the refs, to the “fact-checkers.” Clinton says Trump supported the invasion of Iraq…
Trump: “wrong. Wrong.”
… and Clinton says that George W Bush made an agreement to leave Iraq, not Obama.
This is basic history. Will it fly?
Clinton is on to the homegrown terrorism problem. She calls for an “intelligence surge.” She says that the US must work with Nato and allies to improve intelligence and turn attention to terrorism. “Donald has consistently insulted Muslims abroad, Muslims at home, when we need to be cooperating.”
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3.16am
03:16
Fact check: foreign policy
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Clinton: Trump has been “praiseworthy of Vladimir Putin”.
Trump: “Wrong.”
Trump has repeatedly called Russia’s president a “strong leader” and spoken approvingly – “praise” by nearly any definition – of this strength and Putin’s polling numbers. For instance, on 18 December 2015 he told MSNBC: “I’ve always felt fine about Putin. I think that he’s a strong leader.”
He added: “He’s running his country and at least he’s a leader, unlike what we have in this country.”
Last September, he told Fox News: “In terms of leadership [Putin’s] getting an A.” In a 10 March debate, Trump tried to hedge on semantics. “Strong doesn’t mean good,” he said. “Putin is a strong leader, absolutely. He is a strong leader. Now I don’t say that in a good way or a bad way. I say it as a fact.”
Trump: Clinton has been “fighting Isis your entire adult life.”
The Islamic State’s first segments formed out of the post-invasion civil war in Iraq, while George W Bush was president. The group took root in Syria’s civil war, where the US did not intervene until 2014. The terror group largely formed out of the remnants of Saddam Hussein’s government and the factions that formed al-Qaida in Iraq – all of which happened in the last decade or so. The group also gained international notoriety only in 2014, when it invaded Iraq in significant forces and when Clinton was out of office.
Trump: “Whether [the DNC hack] was Russia, whether that was China, whether that was another country, we don’t know.”
Several independent security firms, in addition to intelligence officials, have pointed to Russian-backed hackers as the culprits behind a hack of the Democratic National Committee. Trump is correct in an extremely technical sense: no one has provided 100% proof that Russia was behind the hack, and the Obama administration has proven loath to escalate a hacking war. But security experts have found technical fingerprints that seem to hint back toward Russia, just as they have found links back to Chinese hacks in unrelated cases.
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3.13am
03:13
Clinton says she has a plan to defeat Isis that involves combatting them online. “But we also have to intensify our air strikes against Isis and .. support our Arab and Kurdish partners…”
“We’re making progress, our military is .. in Iraq.” She says “we’re hoping that within a year we’ll be able to push Isis out of Iraq.”
She ignores Trump’s defense of Russia on the hacking. She says that taking out Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is a top plank in her plan to take out Isis.
3.11am
03:11
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
Donald Trump has tried to deflect a question about how he demanded to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate. Those racist attitudes are still prevalent among the Republican’s supporters.
A poll in May found that two-thirds of voters with a favorable opinion of Donald Trump believed Barack Obama was a Muslim and 59% believed Obama was born outside of the US.
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3.11am
03:11
Trump defends Russia from accusation of hacking DNC
Trump says he was endorsed by more than 200 admirals and generals “and many more are coming.” “So when secretary Clinton says this… I’ll take the admirals and the generals over the political hacks.”
That line may not play well in northern Virginia.
Trump casts doubt on the notion that the DNC hacking was Russia-backed. He says it may have been China, or bizarrely, a “400-lb person sitting on their bed.”
“Under president Obama, we’ve lost control of things we should have had control over.. we have to get very very tough on cyber and cyber warfare.”
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3.09am
03:09
Clinton takes a question on cyber war. She says that Trump has praised Russian president Vladimir Putin. Trump does something strange to the microphone. Kind of swoops on it and blows into it with his full round mouth.
Clinton: “We need to make it very clear.. the United States has much greater capacity, and we are not going to sit idly by to let state actors go after our information.”
“I was so shocked when Donald publicly invited Putin to hack into Americans. That is just unacceptable… Donald is unfit to be commander-in-chief.”
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3.07am
03:07
Fact check: birtherism
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump blames Sidney Blumenthal, a friend of the Clinton’s, and Patti Solis Doyle, a 2008 campaign manager, for creating the false claim that Barack Obama was not born in the United States.
There is no evidence that Clinton or her campaign had anything to do with the false rumors that Barack Obama was not born in the United States, nor did Clinton have anything to do with Donald Trump’s five years of questions about birth certificates, which he finally recanted last Friday.
Trump’s campaign has tried to blame several people who were, if at all, tangentially related to the Clinton campaign. There is no evidence that Solis Doyle had anything to do with the claim either. She told CNN that there was a volunteer coordinator in Iowa who forwarded the email and that the volunteer was dismissed, and that she called the Obama campaign to apologize.
A former aide named Mark Penn wrote a 2007 memo that Obama’s “lack of American roots” could “hold him back”. But he added: “We are never going to say anything about his background.” The Clinton campaign never acted on his advice, and he was dismissed in April 2008.
Some Clinton supporters have been blamed over anonymous chain emails questioning Obama’s citizenship, but none of the rumormongers were linked to the campaign. Philip Berg, a former Pennsylvania official who supported Clinton, filed a lawsuit in 2008 over Obama’s birth certificate; the suit was thrown out because it was groundless. Sidney Blumenthal, an old friend of the Clintons who frequently sent them unsolicited advice, reportedly asked reporters to investigate Obama’s birth, but he has denied this and denounced the conspiracy.
As fellow fact-checkers at Politifact have noted, a Texas volunteer for Clinton named Linda Starr eventually joined Berg’s failed lawsuit; there is nothing to suggest Starr had any influence in the campaign at any level. Campaign volunteers who forwarded emails falsely alleging Obama is Muslim resigned when they were found out.
Trump did not answer the question about what convinced him that the president was born in the United States, even though the birth certificate has been public for the five years that has Trump continued questioning Obama’s birthplace.
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3.07am
03:07
Clinton describes Trump’s ‘long record’ of ‘racist behavior’
Holt asks Trump about what changed his mind about the “birther” babble, which Trump reversed himself on recently after five years.
Trump says that Clinton aide Sydney Blumenthal started it and he ended it. Then he lists things he’d like to get on to – trying to put the conversation behind him.
Holt: The birth certificate was produced in 2011, you continued to press the issue in 2012, 2013, 2014…
Trump: “nobody was caring much about it,” Trump says. He returns to Sydney Blumenthal.
Trump says he did a “great job and a great service” for the country and the president by demanding the birth certificate.
Clinton: “Just listen to what you heard… he tried to put the whole racist, birther lie, to bed. But it can’t be dismissed that easily. He has started his campaign activity based on this racist lie… because some of his supporters.. believed it or wanted to believe it.
Donald started his career back in 1973 being sued by the justice department for racial discrimination…
He has a long record in engaging in racist behavior. And the birther lie was a very difficult one. Barack Obama is a man of great integrity. I would like to remember what Michelle Obama said…
When they go low, we go high.
Trump accuses Clinton of disrespecting Obama in her debates with him. Then he defends the 1970s lawsuits.
We settled the suit with zero with no admission of guilt. They sued so many people.”
Then he says “I have been given great credit for what I did” in Palm Beach, referring to the integration of a club.
Fact check: race and gun crime
Clinton claimed that African American men are more likely to be killed by guns than other demographics, and is broadly correct.
She is broadly correct that African American man are disproportionately affected by gun violence, including by police. She’s also correct that crime rates are overall still down from where they were in the 1990s, but she omits the 10.8% single-year increase in murders in 2015. The recent spike in violent crime has been concentrated in a handful of cities, such as Chicago, Washington DC and Baltimore.
Trump: “African Americans and Hispanics are living in hell because it’s so dangerous. In Chicago they’ve had thousands of shootings since January 1st … Almost 4,000 people in Chicago have been killed since Barack Obama became president.”
Trump often cites Chicago’s shooting crisis as evidence that the US is plagued by dangerous crime, but even that city, which has the most homicides in the US, but not even that city compares to a “war zone” as Trump says. In 2015, Chicago had 2,988 people who were victims of gun violence, according to the Chicago Tribune, and 488 homicides in all. The city has more than 500 homicides so far this year, per the paper, and more than 2,100 victims of gun violence.
In Afghanistan – a country Trump often compares the city to – between January and June 2016, 1,601 civilians have been killed and 3,565 injured, according to the United Nations. The figures include 388 killed and 1,121 injured children. The UN reported 3,545 civilians killed and 7,457 injured in 2015. More than 80,000 people have been displaced by violence this year. The US and Afghan forces control only about 70% of the country, while the Taliban and militants control the other 30%, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff told the Senate on Thursday.
Trump on stop and frisk police tactics: “Stop and frisk which worked very well in New York it … it brought the crime rate way down.”
The controversial police tactic of stop and frisk, which became a hallmark of New York policing through the mayorships of Rudy Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg, has landed the city in federal court, where a judge ruled it unconstitutional. One research paper, unpublished through peer review, found modest drops in some crimes. A second paper, published through peer review, found problems in the first study and “few significant effects” of the tactic.
A New York Civil Liberties Union report, on 12 years’ worth of police data, found young black and Hispanic men were targeted for stops at a vastly higher proportion than white men: more than half the people searched were black and about 30% were Hispanic. Among more than 5m stops during the Bloomberg administration, police found a gun less than 0.02% of the time, according to the report. NYPD records between 2004 and 2012 show similar figures: in 4.4m stops, weapons were seized from 1.0% of black people, 1.1% from Hispanic people and 1.4% of white people.
New York’s long-term decline in crime rates began before Giuliani took office in the 1994, and its causes were and are diverse: data-driven policing with the Compstat system, the growth of the police force by 35% over the decade, incarceration increases by 24%, and the 39% unemployment decline that matched with national economic growth. Not even the loudest supporters of stop and frisk, including Bloomberg, whose last term Trump has called “a disaster”, have argued the tactic alone reduced crime to its current lows.
Trump said that the tactic was not ruled unconstitutional because of a judge “who was against policing”, but his personal opinion about the judge does not mean she did not rule it unconstitutional.
Trump: “We have to take the guns away from the people that shouldn’t have them … these are bad people.”
This argument flies in the face of Trump’s pro-gun rights stance for legal owners; he has repeatedly and falsely insisted that Clinton wants to take away guns from legal owners.
Trump claimed that New York’s crime rate is up since the end of stop and frisk. It remains near historic lows.
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2.59am
02:59
Trump “agrees” that no-fly lists should apply to background checks. Then he tells Clinton that her 1996 crime law-era reference to “Super-predators” was harmful.
Trump then returns to stop-and-frisk and says Clinton secretly agrees with him that it was a great program.
Trump says murders are up in New York. Clinton says they’re down.
Clinton says effective policing is necessary not “things that sound good.” And “no one should disagree about respecting the rights of young men who live in those neighborhoods.”
Holt tries to get in.
“The African American community has really been let down by politicians… the community within the inner cities have been abused and used in order to get votes by Democratic politicians because that’s where it is.”
Trump says “I’ve been all over the place.. you decided to stay home, and that’s OK.”
Clinton has this answer pre-cooked:
I think Donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. And yes I did. And you know what else I prepared for? I prepared to be president. And that’s a good thing.
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2.59am
02:59
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
Hillary is talking about “systemic racial discrimination in the criminal justice system”. The stats back her up.
According to 2008 data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, white, black and Hispanic drivers were stopped at similar rates by police. But black drivers were about three times more likely than white drivers to be searched during a traffic stop.
A 2013 study in the Yale Law Journal found that in cases when judges have discretion over how long a sentence should be for a specific crime, they tend to select longer sentences for black men than white men, even if they have the same criminal history.
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2.58am
02:58
Trump always pumps himself up as a businessman and a billionaire, but Clinton points out that his businesses have filed for bankruptcy on six occasions, that workers have sued for him not receiving payment, and that he refuses to release his tax returns.
Again, that exchange is different depending on who you support.
On the right
Washington Times writer:
— Charlie Hurt (@CharlesHurt)
September 27, 2016
Wow. Hillary Clinton scolding somebody else for hiding things from the public?
A Trump surrogate and conservative commenter:
— Scottie Nell Hughes (@scottienhughes)
September 27, 2016
“It’s about time we have someone running this Country, who knows a thing about money!”-@realDonaldTrump #Debates2016 #MAGA
A conservative:
— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11)
September 27, 2016
Trump got rich by creating phenomenal buildings and structures.
Hillary got rich by selling out America to foreign adversaries.
On the left
President of the Center for American Progress:
— Neera Tanden (@neeratanden)
September 27, 2016
He’s hocking his hotel.
This whole thing is a take on all of us.
Vermont senator and Clinton rival-turned-supporter Bernie Sanders:
now
Bernie Sanders ✔ @BernieSanders
I don’t know if it’s a world record but Donald Trump has been sued more than 3,500 times over the past 30 years. #DebateWithBernie
Follow
Bernie Sanders ✔ @BernieSanders
Many of these lawsuits were filed by working class americans who worked for Trump and never got paid.
3:42 AM – 27 Sep 2016
3,926 3,926 Retweets 5,629 5,629 likes
Politico reporter:
Follow
Jimmy Vielkind ✔ @JimmyVielkind
“I take advantage of the laws of the nation” is not a great sound byte.
3:43 AM – 27 Sep 2016
73 73 Retweets 91 91 likes
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2.55am
02:55
Clinton calls for restricted gun access
Clinton on guns: “We’ve got too many military-style weapons on the streets. In a lot of places, our police are outgunned…we need to keep guns out of the hands of those who’d do harm…
“There are things we can do and we ought to do it in a bipartisan way.”
Good question from Holt: are you saying that police have an implicit bias against black men?
Clinton: “I think the implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police… too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about each other.”
She calls for all of us to ask questions about “why am I feeling this way?”
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2.53am
02:53
Clinton hits Trump for ‘dire negative picture of black communities’
Trump says “you need better relationships between the community and police.. there’s some bad things going on.. we need law and order and we need law and order in the cities.”
Clinton is still listening. Now she speaks.
“I’ve heard Donald say this at his rallies, and it’s really unfortunate that he paints such a dire negative picture of black communities in our country.”
“There’s a lot we should be proud of.”
Clinton says “stop-in-frisk was found to be unconstitutional.” She says it was not effective. “It’s just a fact that if you’re a young African American man, and you do the same thing as a young white man, you’re more likely to be charged, convicted and imprisoned…”
“We can’t just say ‘law and order’. We need to come up with a plan.”
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2.51am
02:51
Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton at the presidential debate on Monday.
Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton at the presidential debate on Monday. Photograph: Rick Wilking/AFP/Getty Images
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2.49am
02:49
Trump: African Americans and Hispanics are living in hell’
Trump says Clinton won’t say “law and order.” “We need law and order in our country.”
Then he describes an inner-city hellscape:
African Americans and Hispanics are living in hell because it’s so dangerous. You walk down the street you get shot.
He says the country needs law and order. He mentions stop and frisk, says Rudy Giuliani in the audience and “it worked very well in New York.”
Clinton is looking at him evenly.
Holt follows up on stop-and-frisk. He says it was unconstitutional because it targets nonwhite men.
“No you’re wrong,” Trump says. “It went before a judge who was a very against-police judge.”
Holt: “The argument is that it causes racial profiling.”
Turmp flatly denies the correlation.
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2.49am
02:49
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
The candidates are currently discussing racial justice in America. But some voters clearly have other priorities. When Pew Research Center asked what voters consider as “very important”, treatment of racial and ethnic minorities comes tenth on the list.
Half Time or Thereabouts but there are no breaks Folks !
Clinton: ‘race often determines too much’
Holt brings up police shootings of black men and asks about healing along lines of race and racism.
“Unfortunately, race often determines too much,” she says. Where they live, how they’re treated in the criminal justice system. “We have to restore trust between communities and the police. We have to work to make sure that our police are using the best training, the best techniques, that they’re well prepared to use force… everyone should be respected by the law and everyone should respect the law.”
She says her platform would address criminal justice reform. “And we’ve got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.” She refers to the gun epidemic. “We have to tackle the plague of gun violence.”
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2.44am
02:44
Trump says he’s opening a hotel on Pennsylvania avenue. “So if I don’t get there one way, I’ll get there another.”
Trump is ranting about the budget. We use the word ranting because his teeth are bared, he’s chopping the air with his hands and his voice is at high volume.
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2.43am
02:43
Fact check: tax plans
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump claimed that his tax plan will be the largest cuts since Ronald Reagan and create jobs, while in his words Clinton’s would create a huge tax hike.
Trump’s tax plan would disproportionately help the wealthiest Americans, saving them millions of dollars and adding trillions to the national debt, according to an analysis by the Tax Foundation, a conservative thinktank. He would reduce the business tax rate to 15%, eliminate the estate tax (aka the “death tax”), which mostly affects wealthy inheritors, and would reduce revenue from taxes by about $5tn. According to the Foundation, the top 1% of earners would see a 10.2% increase to their incomes.
Clinton’s tax plan does not change tax rates for the middle class, but does increase taxes by 4% on people who have an adjusted income of more than $5m, as well as closing corporate loopholes. Only about 0.5% of small businesses in the US reported a profit of more than $1m in 2011, according to the US Treasury Department. Clinton would increase tax revenue by $1.1tn by taxing the top 1% of earners, increasing the estate tax and eliminating fossil fuel subsidies, and by implementing and a more complex tax code, according to the Tax Policy Center.
Trump has not proven that he pays any federal income tax, and did not deny that he doesn’t pay, saying simply that it would prove he’s “smart”.
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2.43am
02:43
Trump: “It’s about time that this country had somebody running it who has some idea about money.” He appears to be referring to himself.
Then he compares La Guardia unfavorably to Dubai, Qatar and Chinese airports. Then he lists all the infrastructure he would build.
“We don’t have the money because it’s been squandered on your ideas,” Trump says.
Maybe it’s because you haven’t paid your taxes, she says. Good line.
Clinton hits Trump for not paying people:
I’ve met a lot of people who were stiffed by you and your businesses, Donald… who you refused to pay when they finished the work that you asked them to do.
Clinton says there’s an architect in the audience who was not paid by Trump for his work.
Clinton: “Do the thousands of people who you have stiffed in the course of your business not deserve some kind of apology?”
Trump says the person probably did not do good work.
She points out he’s taken business bankruptcy six times.. “you even at one time tried to suggest that you would negotiate down the national debt. Sometimes there’s not a direct transfer of skills.. but sometime what would happen in business would be disastrous for government.”
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2.41am
02:41
Manterruptions
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
Notice how Donald Trump keeps on talking over Hillary Clinton? Social scientists around the country will probably be shrugging with a “go figure”. In 1975, two sociologists conducted a study by loitering in public places like coffee shops and drug stores with a tape recorder, listening to two-person conversations they overheard. They found men were responsible for 47 of the 48 interruptions they overheard.
A separate study in 2014 found pretty similar results. When men were talking to women, they interrupted 2.1 times over a three-minute dialogue – when they were talking to men, they interrupted 1.8 times on average. When women were talking to women, they interrupted even more though, 2.9 times per 3 minutes on average. But the women interrupted just once if their talking partner was male.
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2.40am
02:40
Amber Jamieson Amber Jamieson
Debating trade – one of Donald Trump’s biggest claims is that he’s against trade deals such as TPP and NAFTA – has created the most aggressive moment between the two so far, with Trump and Clinton both yelling at each other. But the winner of the spat depends on which side you’re on.
On the right:
Author of Reclaiming the American Right: Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement:
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Justin Raimondo @JustinRaimondo
He’s slaughtering her.
3:22 AM – 27 Sep 2016
123 123 Retweets 201 201 likes
Conservative commentator AJ Delgado:
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A.J. Delgado ✔ @AJDelgado13
Trump is ON FIRE!!!!! #NAFTA #TPP
3:22 AM – 27 Sep 2016
270 270 Retweets 519 519 likes
A Breitbart News reporter:
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John Hayward @Doc_0
Wow.. Trump killing Clinton on NAFTA. She has no idea what to do except repeat B.S. talking points.
3:22 AM – 27 Sep 2016
4 4 Retweets 10 10 likes
GOP strategist:
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Matt Mackowiak @MattMackowiak
Trump is winning so far. The first 15-20 minutes are crucial.#debatenight
3:23 AM – 27 Sep 2016
14 14 Retweets 21 21 likes
On the left:
Political junkie:
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Russell Drew @RussOnPolitics
Donald Trump can’t help himself. He’s drunk, ractist uncle at Thanksgiving. #debatenight #debates
3:22 AM – 27 Sep 2016 · Queens, NY, United States
9 9 Retweets 18 18 likes
Progressive columnist:
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Julia Ioffe ✔ @juliaioffe
How many women watching now are remembering men in their lives who yelled at them wouldn’t let them talk? #Debates2016
3:25 AM – 27 Sep 2016
658 658 Retweets 804 804 likes
Slate editor:
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Franklin Foer ✔ @FranklinFoer
I’m becoming a better parent tonight learning from Hillary Clinton’s patience and even demeanor.
3:23 AM – 27 Sep 2016
161 161 Retweets 294 294 likes
Mona Chalabi
Media reports today have claimed that as many as 100 million people could be tuning in to watch this debate – a number vaguely attributed to “network executives and political strategists”. Wherever the number comes from, it really does seem to be epic by historical standards – is it though?
Nielsen, the market research company which tracks such numbers, looked at 50 years of household viewership for televised presidential debates (note, they’re looking at households though so it’s a slightly different measure). They found that the biggest debate was the one between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney on 3 October 2012 which attracted 46.2 million households.
And, as the candidates debate the economy, remember that viewers will have different attitudes about where the country is at. According to polling by Pew Research Center, Republicans are much less likely than Democrats to say that “economic conditions in the country are excellent” or “very good”.
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2.38am
02:38
Clinton on Trump’s taxes: ‘there’s something he’s hiding’
Clinton gets the mic. She says candidates going back 40 years have released their returns. “So you’ve gotta ask yourself, why won’t he release his tax returns? Maybe he’s not as rich as he says he is. Maybe he’s not as charitable… third, he owes $600m to foreign banks… or maybe he doesn’t want the American people, all of you watching to know he didn’t pay any income taxes.”
Trump: “That makes me smart.”
Clinton: “Zero for troops, zero for vets.. it must be something really important, or terrible, that he’s trying to hide… I have no reason to believe that he’s ever going to release his tax returns. Because there’s something he’s hiding… were he ever to get near the White HOuse. What would be these conflicts? Who does he owe money to?
I made a mistake using private email.
Trump: That’s for sure.
Clinton: I take responsibility.
Trump: That was not a mistake. That was done purposefully.
She’s blinking at him. He may be in conspiracy territory here.
“As far as my tax returns, you don’t learn that much from tax returns, I can tell you.. the other things, I’m extremely under-leveraged.”
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2.36am
02:36
Mona Chalabi Mona Chalabi
It’s ironic (or just plain awful) that voters who are faced with a choice between two of the most unpopular candidates in history must do so on a medium they also thoroughly distrust.
According to data published by Pew Research Center today, 70% of US adults believe the news media is having a negative effect on the country. By contrast, 50% say the same about banks and financial institutions. When analyzed by partisanship, those views are even stronger among Republicans than Democrats.
Trust in institutions.
Trust in institutions. Photograph: Pew
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2.34am
02:34
Holt asks Trump about releasing his tax returns. “Don’t Americans have a right to know?”
Trump says he’s under audit.
It will be released as soon as the audit’s finished. .. but you will learn more about Donald Trump where I have filed a 100-page.. the income is filed at $694m this past year.. you would’ve told me I was going to make that [X] years ago I would’ve been surprised.
That’s the kind of thinking our country needs.
Holt says the IRS says he can still release his returns even under audit.
Trump replies that he’s always under audit. “I will release my tax returns against my lawyer’s wishes when she releases her 33,000 emails that were deleted.”
Some people in the hall clap for that.
Holt: “So it’s negotiable?”
Holt tells the audience to be quiet.
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2.31am
02:31
Trump: ‘our country is suffering’
Clinton says we need “broad-based inclusive growth.” She spins through a few rather automatic talking points.
Trump says Clinton is “all talk, no action, sounds good, never going to happen. Our country is suffering because of people like secretary Clinton.”
“We are in a big, fat, ugly bubble.. and we have a Fed that is doing political things…”
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2.29am
02:29
Trump is now kind of ranting alone onstage about “bureaucratic red tape.” “We have no leadership, and honestly that starts with secretary Clinton.”
“I have a feeling that by the end of this evening everything is going to be my fault,” she says.
He agrees with her. Everything is her fault.
She smiles. “Join the debate by saying more crazy things.”
Trump jumps in again: “There’s nothing crazy about not letting our companies bring their money back into our country.”
He’s interrupting her continuously now.
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2.27am
02:27
Amber Jamieson Amber Jamieson
Donald Trump is sniffling – but only anti-Trump people are acknowledging it, with clear schadenfreude after conservative bloggers pushed stories about Clinton’s ill health and supposed coughing fits for months.
Democrat strategist Stu Loeser:
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Stu Loeser @stuloeser
Twelve of those snorts so far. 13. 14. 15. 16.
3:14 AM – 27 Sep 2016
4 4 Retweets 5 5 likes
A progressive tweeter:
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southpaw @nycsouthpaw
Trump’s got the sniffles.
3:14 AM – 27 Sep 2016
16 16 Retweets 45 45 likes
New York Times TV critic:
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James Poniewozik ✔ @poniewozik
If Hillary were sniffling like that Drudge would have her on deathwatch
3:15 AM – 27 Sep 2016
122 122 Retweets 210 210 likes
Rick Wilson, who is a Republican but not a Trump fan:
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Rick Wilson ✔ @TheRickWilson
Trump keeps sniffling and snorting. Where are the experts on his obvious case of bird flu?
3:14 AM – 27 Sep 2016
90 90 Retweets 202 202 likes
But Trump fans aren’t mentioning it at all.
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2.27am
02:27
Amber Jamieson Amber Jamieson
I’m monitoring red and blue Twitter tonight, to see how different sides report the same thing depending on their political opinions.
Speaking of red and blue, Trump has Clinton is wearing a red pantsuit (the traditional Republican color), while Trump has dumped his red tie for a blue one. It’s a choice that both sides are already commenting on.
On the left, Obama’s former speechwriter …
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Jon Lovett ✔ @jonlovett
Look at that power red next to that beta blue.
3:06 AM – 27 Sep 2016
72 72 Retweets 279 279 likes
And the president for the Center of American Progress:
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Neera Tanden @neeratanden
No white power tie for Trump.
3:05 AM – 27 Sep 2016
63 63 Retweets 173 173 likes
And on the right, conservative blogger Ben Shapiro:
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Ben Shapiro ✔ @benshapiro
Hillary wears Communist red. Trump wears the Serious Face. http://www.dailywire.com/news/9479/liveblogging-debate-trump-v-hillary-round-1-ben-shapiro?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=news&utm_campaign=twitterbenshapiro …
3:06 AM – 27 Sep 2016
119 119 Retweets 301 301 likes
And alt-right blogger Richard B Spencer:
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Richard B. Spencer @RichardBSpencer
Intriguingly, Hillary wears a RED pantsuit and Donald wears a BLUE tie.
Subliminal outreach.
3:05 AM – 27 Sep 2016
13 13 Retweets 35 35 likes
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2.27am
02:27
Trump:
You are going to approve one of the biggest tax cuts in history. You are going to drive businesses out… you are going to regulate these companies out of business…
You have regulations on top of regulations.. and you want to increase the regulations and make them even worse. I’m going to cut taxes big league, and you’re going to raise taxes
Clinton stops Holt from trying to move on. She says Trump cannot go on unanswered. “I kind of assumed that there would be a lot of these charges and claims,” she says. She refers people to her web site to fact-check Trump.
Holt tries to move on. Trump won’t be silenced. “Just go to her web site to fight Isis,” he mocks her. He says General MacArthur would not have said that.
Then he makes another accusation against her: “You’re telling the enemy everything we want to do. No wonder you’ve been fighting Isis your entire adult life.”
Clinton appeals to the refs; “Fact checkers, please.” The pummeling of his attacks, as aggressive, and fantastic, as they are, has an intense energy.
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2.23am
02:23
Trump launches attack
Trump attacks Clinton: “You’ve been doing this for 30 years. Why are you just starting to think about this right now?”
Clinton: “Well, actually, I have thought about this quite a bit. … I think my husband did quite a good job in the 1990s…
Trump interrupts her, sort of inaudibly. She smiles more broadly and continues.
“Incomes went up for everybody… manufacturing jobs also went up in the 1990s, if we’re actually going to look at the facts.”
Then she spouts a bunch of statistics.
“When you haven’t done it for 30 years… your husband signed Nafta, which is one of the worst things that ever happened. You go to Ohio, you go to Pennsylvania… Nafta is one of the worst things signed anywhere…’
It’s a bracing attack. He accuses her of supporting TPP. He’s really going after her. “You called it the gold standard.”
“That is just non-accurate,” Clinton says. “Well, Donald, I know that you live in your own reality, but that was not the facts…”
“Was it president Obama’s fault?”
“There are different views about our country, our economy and…”
Trump: You have no plan. Secretary Clinton you have no plan.
Clinton: I do. I wrote a book about it. … we have a very robust set of plans.
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2.22am
02:22
Fact check
Alan Yuhas Alan Yuhas
Trump: “Our jobs are fleeing the country, they’re going to Mexico they’re going to many other countries … Hundreds of hundreds of companies are doing this.”
Trump is primarily talking about the North American Free Trade Agreement, but the long-term decline in manufacturing around the United States can’t only be attributed to the trade deal. Economists still debate the effect of the deal on jobs, since US trade with Canada and Mexico is modest at best. In 2015, the Congressional Research Service wrote: “Nafta did not cause the huge job losses feared by the critics or the large economic gains predicted by supporters.”
Manufacturing is down 37% since its peak in 1979, but this change has a great deal to do with the general shift toward a service-based economy, which the US has had surpluses in in recent years. It’s true that many manufacturing jobs have been outsourced, especially since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001, but it’s also true that the US has added more than 800,000 factory jobs since 2010.
Trump: “My father gave me a small loan in 1975.”
Trump never struggled for money or started with anything modest. In 1978 his father gave him a loan totaling almost $1m – about $3.7m today – and acted as guarantor for the young Trump’s early projects. A 1981 report by a New Jersey regulator also shows a $7.5m loan from the patriarch, and years later hebought $3.5m in gambling chips to help his son pay off the debts of a failing casino, which was found to have broken the law by accepting them. Trump also borrowed millions against his inheritance before his father’s death, a 2007 deposition shows.
Trump has not proven that he is worth $10bn, though his tax returns, which he has refused to release, could provide a clearer picture of his worth. His financial filings suggest he has less than $250m in liquid assets, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis. Trump has a history of overstating his properties: he has, for instance, told the FEC that a New York golf club is worth $50m but also argued in court that it is worth only $1.4m.
“Donald is one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis.”
Clinton is correct, and Trump unrepentant. In a video made in 2006 for his defunct and legally embattled Trump University, Trump said he hoped for a real estate “bubble burst”.
“I sort of hope that happens because then people like me would go in and buy” property and “make a lot of money,” he said.
“That’s called business by the way,” Trump interrupted Clinton.
Clinton: “Donald says climate change is a hoax created by the Chinese.”
Trump: “I did not, I do not say that.”
Trump did say that, in a 2012 tweet, right here:
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Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.
8:15 PM – 6 Nov 2012
44,276 44,276 Retweets 25,332 25,332 likes
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2.19am
02:19
Trump: “she talks about solar panels.. we invested in solar panels, that was a disaster… our energy policies are a disaster… you can’t do what you’re looking to do with $20tn in debt… [Obama] has doubled it in almost eight years… seven and a half years to be semi-exact.”
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2.18am
02:18
Clinton: “Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.”
Trump: I did not say that. I did not say that. I did not say that.
Clinton just continues.
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2.17am
02:17
Clinton: ‘Donald… rooted for the housing crisis’
Clinton says, “Let’s stop for a second and remember where we were eight years ago.”
She says the recession was owing to “tax policies that slashed taxes on Wall Street… in fact Donald was one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis…
Trump: That’s called business, by the way.
Clinton: 9 million people lost their jobs… The last thing we need to do is to go back to policies that failed us. She cites a nonpartisan tax study saying his plan would create a $5tn debt over ten years.
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2.15am
02:15
Trump is sniffling a lot. He’s on to Nafta. He says “secretary Clinton and others, politicians, should have been doing this for years… what’s happened to our jobs and our economy… we are $20tn, we cannot do it.
Holt: How do you bring back American manufacturing.
Trump: Don’t let the companies leave… “You say, fine… if you think you’re going to make… whatever you make and bring them into our country without a tax, you’re wrong.”
Clinton is watching him respectfully, attentively. He’s repetitious.
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2.14am
02:14
Trump falls for it. He says his father gave him “a small amount of money” in the 1970s and he built it into buildings. He’s a bit tetchy on the inheritance issue, and on his own brilliant record as a businessman.
“Let me give you the example of Mexico,” he says, and starts talking about the Vat tax.
Does he have a sniffle? Is he sick?
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2.12am
02:12
Clinton: ‘Donald is very fortunate in his life’
“Donald is very fortunate in his life, and that’s all to his benefit… he borrowed $14m from his father, he really believes the more you help wealthy people, the better off you’ll be.”
Clinton contrasts her father’s experience dying drapery fabrics.
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2.12am
02:12
Trump on child care: ‘I think Hillary and I agree’
Now Trump. “Our jobs are fleeing the country,” he says. “They’re going to Mexico. You look at what China is doing… they’re using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China.”
He returns to Mexico. They’re building plants. “With the United States, not so much… thousands of jobs…
As far as child care is concerned.. I think Hillary and I agree on that… but we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us.
He returns to Mexico. Then he says “I’ll be reducing taxes tremenodously,” and that’s “going to be a job creator.”
Two minutes is tough for him?
Trade is an important issue,” Clinton says. We are 5% of the world’s population. We have to trade with the other 95%.”
She says, “The kind of plan Donald has put forth would be trickle-down economics, all over again.”
Then she tries, clumsily, a pseudo-zinger: “I call it Trumped-up trickle down economics.”
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2.08am
02:08
Let’s begin. Achieving prosperity. Holt frames the question. There’s been six years of jobs growth and increasing incomes.
This question is for Clinton. “Why are you a better choice to create jobs to put $$ in the pockets of American workers?”
Clinton thanks the moderator and crowd. What kind of country will we be, she asks. She says she thinks about her granddaughter, who’s turning two.
“I want to invest in you. I want to invest in the future.”
“We also have to make the economy fairer,” she says.
She’s quite poised. She is speaking not quickly. Paid family leave, earned sick days, affordable child care, wealthy pay their fair share.
Finally we tonight are on the stage tonight, Donald Trump and I. Donald it’s good to be with you… you have to judge us, who can shoulder the immense, awesome responsibilities of the presidency…
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2.05am
02:05
Here are the candidates. He’s in a blue tie, she’s in a red pantsuit. So that’s different.
They shake hands. They are both smiling ear-to-ear. 72 teeth between them.
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2.04am
02:04
Candidates take stage
Holt begins. He announces six segments, 15 minutes long. He’ll begin each segment with identical leadoff questions. Each candidate will have two minutes to respond. They’ll go from there.
Here come the candidates.TVC