FG should restructure Nigeria before the next election

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What do you make of the National Judicial Council’s
recall of judges accused of corrupt practices?

Well, we are governed by a Constitution and under the
constitution, a man is presumed innocent until he is found guilty.
The National Judicial Council has the right to recall the Judges
accused of corruption because the court of law has not found them
guilty. If a man is not guilty, he would wear the gown of
innocence. The NJC can’t hold that they are guilty.

How would you rate the Federal Government in terms of
putting together a compelling case against the accused
judges?

Federal Government doesn’t prosecute. But if it is about the
Attorney General of the Federation and Minister of Justice, I may
have something to say. But let it be stated clearly that most of
these cases in court were initiated by anti-graft agencies
including the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission and the
Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission
that have powers to prosecute; not by the federal government as
such. So, I will not be part of those who will blame the federal
government for the way cases are being handled. On the contrary, I
will look at how all these agencies handle these matters. Briefly,
criminal cases, from my experience, are very difficult areas to
convict anybody. Our law is that you must prove beyond all
reasonable doubts before you convict a person. There was a young
man who was alleged to have killed a young girl near Manchester in
England. The man pleaded his innocence throughout his trial but he
was found guilty and was hanged. Eight years after, the real killer
came out and said that the man was killed wrongly. Was it possible
for the court to restore the man to life? That was why the English
law was changed. Another point is that a good and competent lawyer
does not go by facts alone. He allows the prosecution to put his
case and goes to attack the case of the prosecution by picking
holes in the case. Once you can pick a hole in the case, your no-
case-submission would be that they have not proved the case beyond
reasonable doubts. So, I will therefore not say that anti-graft
agencies are not doing their best. When you have a good lawyer, you
can always pick holes in prosecution cases.

If lawyers are capitalising on holes in criminal cases,
don’t you think it is an indication that the agencies are not
manned by competent lawyers?

There was a time that people thought I was a specialist in
criminal cases because it was so easy for me to win cases. Let me
tell you, there are cases where my clients had confessed in writing
that they committed murder and I got them acquitted. The fact that
you made a confessional statement doesn’t mean you are guilty in
law. There are other things that lawyers and judges look at. I have
acquitted many clients who have made confessional statements
because of the legal requirement. That is the correct position of
the law. There is what we call justice according to facts and
justice according to law. The facts may be in your favour but a
good lawyer will make you fail. That is justice according to law. A
court will not give judgment according to facts in law but
according to law.

How will the continued efforts by the Federal Government
to prosecute the accused judges affect the output of the judges now
that they have been asked to go back to work?

Once they are charged to court, certainly they cannot continue
to preside. Normally, they will be on suspension pending the
conclusion of trial. A mere allegation or report in the media that
a judge was found with some money or whatever does not mean that he
is guilty. You have to listen to his own side. You should not
convict judges based on newspaper proceedings. We are doing a lot
of disservice to judiciary, they are also human beings. So I don’t
believe in newspaper trial. Once they are charged to court, common
sense and convention demand they should step aside because people
would not have confidence in them. To me, anybody charged to court
even in private businesses should be suspended and probably be paid
half salary. So it is improper for them to continue to sit if they
are facing criminal charges elsewhere.

Are you suggesting that the cases they are handling
should be transferred to other judges?

As long as criminal cases are hanging on their necks in the
court of law, they should not handle cases.

What is your reaction to the acquittal of Senate
President Bukola Saraki at the Code of Conduct
Tribunal?

He was charged for breaches and he pleaded innocence and he got
some committed lawyers to argue his case and the court found out
that he has not breached any code of conduct. To me, that is the
end of the matter. They can only re-arrest him if they found new
evidences relating to a fresh charge not the old charge upon which
the CCT delivered its judgment. They have to justify that before
the court of law; otherwise, it would amount to abuse of court
process.

Do you agree with most Nigerians that justice for the
high and mighty bears no resemblance to the justice of the average
Nigerian?

This is a question I have listened to many times before. The
same case if handled by an incompetent lawyer may result in failure
but if handled by a competent lawyer, you get a different result.
We have different classes of people in the society: the very rich,
the rich and the poor. When the very rich or rich engaged the
service of a competent lawyer who charges higher fees, the poor
will probably go for a lawyer who is less experienced and whose fee
is lower. So, to that extent, the mighty is in a position to get a
favourable judgement while the poor may not. That explains that
there is different in judgement for the mighty financially and the
poor financially.

So it is not about purchase of judgment.

It isn’t. It is about the purchase of competent lawyer by the
mighty. It is like a market the mighty buys the organic vegetable
while the poor buys the inorganic vegetable. Law profession is a
noble one. The nobility of the work can be found in the competence
and non-competence of the lawyer. That is where you have the
difference between someone winning and someone not wining.

We have had situations where people were jailed many
years for stealing phones while cases against some ex-governors and
top politicians have been dragging for many years now. Do you think
this has helped in building a trust in the nation’s justice
system?

There goes again the competence of lawyers. The governors have
the money to hire competent lawyers; you know them (competent ones)
yourself. You read about them in the newspapers all the time. If
you go back to 80s and as recent as 10 years ago, you will see that
I was hired virtually from all parts of the country. Flying from
Calabar to Jos, Maiduguri, Yola because they were aware of my
competence. So if the governors hired competent lawyers, they get
results. There is nothing wrong in that.

What is your reaction to the Economic and Financial Crimes
Commission’s decision to reopen an investigation on the Chairman of
the CCT?

Nothing stops them from investigating him. Nothing. That is
proper.

Don’t you think it is a case of witchunt because he
failed to convict the senate president?

There will be many schools of thought about that. If the matter
had been investigated in the past, there is no point
reinvestigating him.

If you were leading the prosecution side in the case
against Saraki, what would you do differently?

That will depend on the facts in the matter. I’m not in
possession of the facts in the matter, so I can’t speak on
that.

Why is it that, contrary to what obtains in more developed
democracies, Nigerian politicians fail to resign when they are
caught up in one scandal or the other?

There are many things peculiar to this country. In civilised
countries, a person will resign as soon as such allegation is made
against him. It is not that area alone that we have our peculiar
factor. Recently I delivered a lecture at the Obafemi Awolowo
University and pointed out some factors which include the failure
of a rich man to support the university. Failure of the alumni to
support their universities, whereas in other countries, the money
realised from the yearly donation by alumni and public spirited
individuals is more than two-third of the money spent yearly by
those universities. So it is a peculiar factor.

Is this appropriate?

I’m an advocate of change of attitude by Nigerians in many
areas, not only in universities affairs but also public service. It
is wrong for one to be accused and yet remain in power. You don’t
have to wait.

Given the public outcry against Dino Melaye,
particularly in his constituency, do you think it’s time for the
senator to resign?

He was duly elected by the people and there is provision in the
law. If the people are not satisfied, they can recall him. It is
for his constituency to decide whether to recall him or not.

How would you rate President Muhammadu Buhari’s
anti-corruption war?

I think every Nigerian knows what we are going through in the
hands of corruption. He is doing his very best. The day we go back
to what Nigeria was like when I was young in the 50s, that day
Nigeria will be a great country. That was a time that when going to
school we were able to buy fruits from the shelves in the absence
of the owner. We will put money there and take our balance, yet
nobody was stealing. Corruption started gradually and crept into
the system. There was a time people thought charging five per cent
was corruption. I defended a minister in 1967 after the coup and
the man was acquitted. Today, corruption has assumed a huge
proportion that drastic measure ought to be adopted by any serious
government. To that extent the government is doing the right thing
to stamp it out. But let me warn that arresting people is not the
answer, imprison one is not the answer. The answer is to go back to
elementary and secondary schools as well as tertiary institutions
and change the mind of the youths. The only change that can bring
permanent change about corruption is to change the minds of the
youths. Because the government wiped out the teaching of religion
from schools, we are now the victims of all sorts of crimes. Let us
return teaching of morals to school. It is very important. That is
what we are trying to do in my universities here. Buhari will not
attain his lofty aims of fighting corruption by jailing people. Let
us go back to the basis. Let the schools and religious centres do
more; let the government functionaries change their attitude.

Do you agree with Prof Itse Sagay that the Attorney
General of the Federation has not been serious about the
anti-corruption war?

I do not know what Sagay means by that. The AGF is just one
person; he has other people working in the ministry. How can you
hold him responsible for the inefficiency of others? How can you
hold him responsible for the lapses that took place in courts by
the EFCC? How can you hold him responsible for the accused getting
competent lawyers who picked holes in the case of the prosecution?
I don’t think the minister can be held responsible for that. Let me
tell you, I do not know of any case you can bring against anybody
that I as a lawyer cannot win for them. My records are there.

What are your thoughts on the way President Buhari’s
health is being handled?

Buhari is a human being. He is reportedly sick, anybody can be
sick. He is entitled to seek quality treatment and quality doctors,
and he is entitled to keep to himself the ailment which he is
treating. Under our constitution he has fundamental human rights to
privacy and there is nothing under our constitution which says he
must disclose to public what disease he is suffering from. That he
is a president does not mean he must disclose what is personal to
him. His health is a personal matter and not a public matter. That
is under our constitution.

With Ekiti State Governor, Ayodele Fayose, coming out
boldly to say Buhari is on life-support, do you not think he should
step down?

Under the constitution, the president is entitled to remain in
office whether he is ill or not. What our constitution says is that
he remains the president until he dies. He has not been pronounced
dead. Whether one likes it or not, that is the position of our
constitution. It is left to him to resign if he feels he cannot
continue as the president. So it is a matter for him. It is a
subjective tense. He cannot be dictated to by anybody. Also the law
allows somebody else to act for him when he is ill. And somebody
who exercises all the powers of the president is acting for him
today. Section 135 says that ‘subject to the provision of this
constitution, a person shall hold the office of the president until
he dies whilst holding such office or resigns. He shall hold the
office until his resignation takes effect.’ He has not resigned.
There may be loopholes but that is the position of the
constitution. Maybe nobody anticipated a president may be ill for
many years or for many months. The constitution has even taken care
of that fear because we can have the vice president acting. So he
remains the president.

In the days of late president Umaru Yar’Adua, there were
calls that the Nigerian Medical Association should raise a panel to
ascertain his true state of health. Relating that to the case at
present, do you think that is a proper thing to do?

It is improper to set up an inquiry to look into his health
because he is a mortal and can fall sick. The country does not lose
anything because the constitution says the vice president can act
as president. Who knows whether or not he would recover fully? Only
God knows. A doctor may even say a man has one month to live and
the person would live many years thereafter. You can’t tell.

What is your view about restructuring?

People are agitating for the restructuring of this country. I
have been an unrepentant supporter and crusader for restructuring
of the country because what we have is called federal government
but it is indeed a unitary government where states only go for
begging of money at the end of every month and no development of
any kind is taking place. Left to me and referring to 2014 National
Conference where restructuring was suggested, I will suggest a
Sovereign National Conference. Whatever the result is turned over
to a national referendum and the outcome of the national referendum
shall be the people’s constitution without any resort to any
assembly for amendment because as long as we still have this
national assembly there, they can never restructure this country in
a way that will be detrimental to the money they are earning. The
2014 conference says they should not earn salaries anymore they
should be earning allowances. What have they done to it? Of course
it will not be in their own interest to wipe off salary for
allowances, so, they ignored it. The proper thing for us to do is
let the Federal Government set in motion the necessary machinery
for the restructuring of this country and the result must be out
before the next election. In a way, I’m saying there should be no
election until we have a new constitution under the Sovereign
National Conference. There is urgent need by Buhari government
because of the agitation in the country including former military
president Ibrahim Babangida. who was one of the men who imposed
this constitution on us, who in his wisdom has now changed gear and
say let us restructure the country. Recently I appealed to him to
call on other military rulers like former president Olusegun
Obasanjo, Abubakar Abdul-Salam, Yakubu Gowon and others to join the
crusade for restructuring.

Considering that previous conferences ended up being a
jamboree, because their reports were never implemented. Don’t you
think the SNC will not end up a jamboree?

It will not because this time it will be subjected to a
referendum. Whatever the outcome is shall be the people’s
constitution. That is what is happening all over the world and
Nigeria should not be an exception. Whatever the outcome is shall
be the constitution. That was what happened in 1976 in America and
recently in other countries.

Now that the constitution does not make a provision for
referendum, what do you think?

The constitution is the handiwork of the military. We are
talking of the people’s constitution. People are superior to any
National or State Assembly. If this government has the will to tell
the people about the need for a sovereign national conference,
members of the state and national assembly would be bound by
it.

Does the National Assembly have the constitutional powers to
adjust the national budget in view of the current controversy
between it and Minister of Works, Housing and Power, Tunde
Fashola?

Certainly not. Under the separation of powers, it is the
executive that has the power to think about revenue generation, the
amount they want to spend out of it and how to spend it. No where
under the constitution is it provided that National Assembly who is
to make law shall now engage in budget making.

Where does the National Assembly now come in the budget
making?

It is merely to approve and look at the illegality of it. Look
at what they have prepared and see whether it is in line with the
law. Nothing more.

What if it is not in line with the law?

If it is not in line with the law, they send it back to the
executive. If after three months it becomes the law.

Does that mean the president can ignore the National
Assembly?

Yes!

Does that mean the National Assembly does not have the
power to overrule the president?

Yes, they don’t have the powers to overrule the president.

A Senior Special Adviser to the president said that Buhari would
seek re-election in 2019 amidst his health status which is
generating debate. Do you think this is a good idea?

That is very easy. It is the party that elected him that
reserves the right to decide whether they will field him or not.
Even if the president says he wants to contest and the party does
not want him, he cannot impose himself on the party. In the end, it
is the party that decides.

How would you rate Acting President Yemi Osinabjo’s
performance?

Excellent!

What is your advice for the president?

My advice is that the president should listen to the agitation
of Nigerians and immediately organise a sovereign national
conference and thereby put an end to agitation from different parts
of the country. By doing so, he would earn for himself the credit
of one who helps the country to become a nation and not a country
of nations or tribes which was the wish of the founding fathers,
who met in London between 1950 and 1956 and fashioned a truly
federal constitution for the country, which unfortunately was
outlawed by the military.

You are an elder statesman but people would want to
know. Are you a politician? If you are, do you belong to any
political party?

I’m not a politician. I have never picked the membership card of
any political party and have never contested in any election. When
Obasanjo as the Head of State wanted to constitute a National
Conference based on zero party system, my people in Ado Ekiti
approached me in Ibadan and elected me on no party basis to go to
the constituent assembly for them. But I’m a political animal.
Plato said ‘every citizen who wants to know how he is governed is
apolitical animal. If you do not want to know how a government
performs, you are an animal and should leave in the forest.’ I live
among the people and should know how I’m governed. This is why
regularly; I air my views on issues about how I should be
governed.